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#12: Mourning the Wicked

• Preston Moore

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Carson and Preston have been changed… For Good? The boys dive into a detailed critique of both 'Wicked' movies, expressing both anticipation and disappointment. Additionally, they explore the broader implications of adapting the popular Broadway musical and speculate on the future of the franchise.

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Preston:

Welcome into Zoll Pod. I am Preston Moore. Joined alongside as always, Carson Terrell. Carson, we've got, a good episode coming up, an exciting episode, one that you and I both kind of have been looking forward to doing for a little while now. It's gonna be a wicked episode. One might say,

Carson:

Halloween is over. Halloween is over, but wicked season is not. It's just a different kind of wicked. And it's funny, like if you would've asked me a year ago, would you be reviewing both Wicked movies in a podcast episode, I probably would've said no.'Cause I don't really have a history with the musical of this, and I, I want to get into your lore with this in a second, but I don't have much history with this. And really the ramp up to the film. Was my introduction to this, the musical and then movie. So it's been a very interesting ride because obviously this has become one of the most popular franchises in the last two years. I think Wicked Part One was the highest grossing movie in the US all year until I think it still holds a title from a year ago of the highest grossing US movie. So obviously very popular. And yeah, there's a lot to like about these movies. It's a lot of fun and I'm excited to kind of dive into it.

Preston:

Yeah, definitely. And you mentioned it has been huge. I mean, I don't wanna say that I'm surprised, but I'm definitely, well, I am a little surprised by the level of,

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

of popularity of fame that Wicked has gotten over the course of the last, you know, year and a half or so. Ever since the first one released, obviously it was a really big ip, but you hit the nail on the head. It has become one of the most popular franchises, so much to the point that. Now, even today as we're recording this, I believe the president of Universal or, or somebody, said that they are hoping, or that they feel as if they have a responsibility was the word, to continue this quote unquote franchise somehow, which is very interesting. And that's something that I expected to be honest, given how well both of these films did in the box office, total hits.

Carson:

Yeah, and it's wild too. It's like, it's kind of interesting'cause like. Obviously Ariana Grande is a huge star, right? And Cynthia Ervo is like an incredible, like talent and then like, putting them together, like it, honestly, they became their own franchise as well. And so it's like, obviously it started with the marketing and the memes all last year. Like I'm holding space for the, that whole meme blew up. But I feel like the all-Out marketing blitz is probably one of the craziest things I've seen in the past couple years too. Like, you could not go anywhere last year when this movie was first coming out, you could go to the, the grocery store and it'd be like, get the pink and green cereal. It's like they masterfully did it and it was like, it was so crazy. And then I finally saw the movie and I was like, oh, this is what it's about. Because, yeah, it was kind of just a marketing thing for me at first, and I'm seeing all the behind the scenes. I'm like, oh yeah, it's tied to Wizard of Oz, but I don't really know how it's gonna tie in. And I guess just to set this up, like, so I watch the movie in theaters last year, um, with my, then

Preston:

seen the musical beforehand? You mentioned this

Carson:

no, I had, I had not read the book'cause Okay, so it's based on a book. Right.

Preston:

I.

Carson:

Which then was, turned into the musical and now was then consequently adapted. Anyways, so yeah, no, this was literally my first time experiencing any of it was last, last time. And I remember people just like clapping during the songs. Like, it was like very like, oh my gosh, like this is like very hype for people. And I was like, yeah, this is, I'm buying like I rewatched the, the first movie. In preparation for part two last weekend. And I was like, man, say what you wanna say about the movie. But every, all the songs in part one are like insanely well done, probably everyone of'em is like a radio smash. It, it's kind of insane. And I wanna talk a little bit about your experience too.'cause like, this hit me a year ago and then I was surprised when we were talking about like, episode ideas a couple weeks ago of like, oh yeah, I've never seen The Wicked, never seen the Wicked Movie a year later. And I was like, if anyone were to see the Wicked movie, I thought you were gonna be the one to see it. I'm shocked. Walk me through, where were you a year ago and why did you not go see this? What happened?

Preston:

that's a good question. It's funny that you say that because, that's been much everybody has said that, uh, that

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

I've mentioned that I didn't see it, or any time that it's come up or whatever the case may be like it has been. You know, you what you just gave me was a little bit less, uh, than I get from most people. Most people are like, ab actually just disgusted by the fact that I haven't seen it. And one number one, shocked because anybody that knows me, I'm a musical person, you know, I've done theater. Like, I worked at Disney World Wicked's, not Disney, but like, come on. I mean, there are a lot of similarities between like the Wizard of Oz and,

Carson:

Yes, totally.

Preston:

Disney puts out and all of that. It's just my niche and, so a lot of people really have been shocked that I didn't see it. And at the time I was just really busy. I didn't see many movies at all last year. That came out last year. I've caught up on a bunch Wicked Part one being one of those movies now. But yeah, I was just, I was insanely busy at the time and I just wasn't seeing a lot of movies. One of the reasons that I didn't make an effort to kind of clear my schedule and go see Wicked Part One, when it came out, even after, it got pretty solid reviews, obviously a slew of Oscar nominations, which really surprised me at the time, and honestly surprised me even still now having seen it. But, even after the good reviews, I just thought visually that it looked like shit. Like I just thought it looked so ugly. I thought I was like this. It was letting me down. It was letting me down in a lot of ways. I had seen Wicked on stage on Broadway, and obviously anybody that's seen that show on Broadway walks away really amazed. You know, it is one of the greatest Broadway musicals of all time. I haven't read the book, but, Everybody knows that it's one of the greatest musicals of all Time Act One of that musical is maybe one of the greatest acts, put to stage ever. And, you know, the original Broadway cast stars like Kristin Chinwe, Idina Menzel, who went on to do things with her voice that everybody has heard now since in Frozen and Frozen two and whatnot. And so it's obviously this huge phenomenon. It's been a huge phenomenon. I had seen it on stage and I loved it on stage. And then I saw via the trailer and TV spots last year. It just looked ugly and it just looked like a lot of the movies that I didn't want to see. It looked like a lot of the movies that I did not make an effort to go back to theaters. I believe a couple months prior I had gone to see, um, and Wolverine. And to be honest, like visually. didn't look like a step up from that. And

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

as much as do like Wicked, I was never like a massive wicked on Broadway fan. I, I was a fan, but I wasn't like, you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't catch me hanging wicked posters in my room or anything like that. And so, you know, it just didn't look visually appealing to me. It didn't look like what it could be. And if you've seen it on stage, the visuals of the show on stage are absolutely phenomenal. I mean, it's a beautiful, beautiful work of art that they put on stage and the things that they're able to do, with special effects and makeup obviously. But beyond that, the staging and the lighting of it all, it is a gorgeous, gorgeous show. And if that's what you've seen out of Wicked, maybe that's what you expect. I guess maybe

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

my head was at. so my expectations probably weren't really being met entirely, having seen it on Broadway. Now seeing the film. Again, speaking just from a visual perspective. So that's why I didn't see it last year, but I did see it, with my little brother a couple days before seeing Wicked for Good, just to prepare for it because I knew I had the time I was gonna see it with my family. I needed to see the first one beforehand. And, yeah, I mean, it, it was, it was definitely interesting. I had a friend of mine who before seeing either of them, I told him, I was like, I'm, I'm gonna see, you know, I'm gonna see part one and then I'm gonna see for good just a couple days later. And he was so mad at me. He was big theater guy. He was so mad at me because he was like, I had to wait a year in between these movies and, and part one was such a smash hit, I mean, regardless of what you think, that movie was critically adored as well. Wicked for Good has not really necessarily been critically adored, compared to the way that the audience reaction has been, which in a way mirrors what is on stage. But for me, that's kind of my story with these movies. I had seen Wicked on Broadway a couple years back. I had obviously heard a lot of the songs before ever even seeing it on Broadway because it is this iconic, musical. I didn't see it last year and I caught all up just here in the last couple of weeks and I'm excited to talk about it. I'm very interested to get your thoughts on it. Carson, you went, you did the year. You had a year

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

You might not be the biggest wicked stand that I know, but you had a year long wait in between part one and for good. So what. Overarching. I guess maybe we should, maybe we could start a little bit with part one, but I do want, obviously

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

to be about the movie that just came out, so, but take me back a year ago when Part one comes out. What are your thoughts on all of that?

Carson:

So, yeah, I think I was in a similar boat to you a year ago. It is like, obviously we talk about movies every day with our friends and whatnot, and you know, the group chat was group chatting about this when this trailer came out. It was like, you know, the classic people on Twitter of like added a color grade, fixed it for the, you know, like, you know, all the classic tropes that we get when any big movie comes out and garners enough attention it doesn't matter what it is, there will be some controversy. The day that the first trailer drops, oh my God, the visual effects are bad. Oh my god. Uh, this sounded horrible. Oh my gosh. Uh, why is this person in this role? You know? So it doesn't matter what it is, but I tend to agree with you. And I remember seeing the first trailer and I'm like, wow, that doesn't really, in my head I'm thinking, okay, wizard of Oz, Vista vision, like this, this gem in cinematic history that like literally, I mean it's playing in this, this sphere now. Historical, like just some of the best kind of imagery put in colors, put to screen it is just so iconic. And so seeing sort of the muted, blown out overcast kind of a style of the cinematography and the color gray that they'd chose to envelop the world that they were trying to of oz that they were trying to create. It was so interesting and it's something that I've been kind of researching just offhand too, of like, why do movies look like this? And we talk about like the difference between different blockbusters coming out and it's so fascinating. And then, you know, I start reading up on the press tour and they're interviewing, John Chu and the Cinematographer, and I think it's important to, establish out the gate that this is. This is something they chose, like this is, and it's not just that, like this is, this is popular. Like this is a popular look that has been deemed as cinematic, this, this shallow depth of field, blown out background, not this anti deep focus. It's all about creating this shallow depth of field and making, you know, showing these lenses and differentiating it from something that you would see on your phone. And it's so interesting because it's like, it's, it's like what's in vogue right now for cinematography there's people like, oh my gosh, we need to go shoot. They should have shot Wicked on film so it would look better. But like, no, it's like this is how they're choosing to do their compositions. Like they think this, they wanted, like, there's a quote of from the director going around of like, we wanted Wicked to have this sense of like. Realism to it that like us, the audience could buy into the world being real. Like that, that was their mentality going into it. And it's so fascinating because when you think of Oz, I and all the, the, the animals and all the colors and the green, the, the iconic green and the red of the, the, uh, Dorothy's red slippers, like, like yeah. The yellow brick road, like you think of some of the most iconic color palette like you, it's so baked into the story and it's so fascinating that it like you approach this, okay, we're coming up with the look of Wicked. Okay, we're going to blast every single LED light through the back of the set. We're gonna, we're gonna have amazing sets, but.

Preston:

that's what I was

Carson:

We don't want you to see them, we don't want you to see them. We are going to blow the crap out of it. There's gonna be zero deep focus. It's all gonna be shot wide open. Aperture, like Jonathan Bailey's gonna be running around and you can't see the, the, this amazing spinning set. This is probably one of the biggest travesties of the first movie, is that beautiful set during his first, musical number in the, what'd you call it? Cafeteria slash library slash

Preston:

I

Carson:

And it's like super imaginative. Like, you know, it's like, it kind of feels like the, equivalent of like the Harry Potter, big common room where they all eat, all eat, you know, dinner and it's the first thing you see when they get back to school every time. And it's like this iconic location, but like, oh, it's, the way they approach it is just such a choice. Like, I don't know how else to put it. And so I think I, yeah, like it's, it's fascinating.

Preston:

lately, there have been these photos, real life photos of the sets going around saying, what are they gonna do

Carson:

Yes. Or just, or just the BTS photographer, like, you know, taking, taking onset images, and just having a standard color profile baked in. It's so fascinating. Putting that up next to stills from the actual movie, like Grit from the Blu-ray.

Preston:

Yeah. And you brought up the lighting. I think that's one thing. They do it in both movies.

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

the light is just, just, I don't even know what to say. It's like just smashing through the back of, and this isn't just in that scene that you mentioned. It's in multiple, it's in, it's in, their like dorm room that they have at SHI University. It's in the final big number of the first one when she's singing to find gravity. Like it's, anytime there's a window, like the light is just smashing through the back, and it's coming directly at the camera to the point where you're not silhouetted. Like our figures aren't silhouetted, but it kind of just washes out Gorgeous, oftentimes practical sets that they had, in camera. And, and I, I don't wanna say they lost that because they have it and it's all there. It won the Oscar for production design for a good reason. But at the same time, these movies sort of just make me think of what they could have been both of

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

one thing where I think the, that for good, the second one kind of falters in a way, is, John m Chu, the director. I don't think he really does anything interesting as a director. Hardly anything, that I love about these films. Are thanks to imaginative direction. You go watch something, like La La Land or Steven Spielberg's West Side Story, and you see these really imaginative ways to shoot musical numbers, really fantastic, creative, engaging ways, where the musical numbers feel alive. They don't necessarily just feel like a group of people, an ensemble, stepping and dancing along to a song. And I think that John m True doesn't really bring that, to this film, to either of these films, but the

Carson:

Especially part two. I was, I wanted to get your take on this because like a lot of the, the choreography in part one, the first kind of number when they arrive at the academy and then also like popular with all the stuff going on in the room and like all the stuff Oh, fantastic. Like genuinely good, some good choreography in camera work, in those numbers. And maybe it's like I'm wearing rose tinted glasses or like seeing,'cause those are like probably the best songs of the entire deal.

Preston:

That's a big part of it

Carson:

But then I, yeah, like I noticed in part two, like. Y you know, you have these lesser songs, but then the, the, the, choreography and the camera work to match is just so much just medium shot hover 360 around our character, maybe got by three seconds of a wide shot, like maybe three seconds, and then it goes back to just hovering around. Never did I feel that more than the climax of part two. Which I just emotionally, that set is just so vacant. There's like three torches and we just sit there and Dorothy's down there in the dungeon and I'm like, what's going on? Have you seen the memes around that? It is so, it's so funny.

Preston:

You know, and, and I

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

The direction's a lot less inspired in part two. But I also think, this is something that has kind of been known about Wicked on stage for quite some time.

Carson:

For like 10 years, 15 years.

Preston:

right? Act One is an all timer act. One is incredible. Act one has this defy Gravity, one of the greatest songs, ever in musical theater history. I don't think anybody's gonna fight me on that. Act one is fantastic. Act two. It's a little messier.

Carson:

Yeah. You gotta land the plane.

Preston:

The plot is all kind of, you know, the plot is the plot. It's kind of all over the place. You're tying up a lot of loose ends from Act one and beyond that, the music itself, the songs, they're not as good. There's one big hit in Act two, good deed. And I really thought Cynthia Ervo did an incredible job, really throughout the both films. I really liked her. No good deed. I think she does a great job. I think for the most part, John M. Chew, I didn't find his directing really inspired in either film. Especially in part two, I thought in part one he could kind of hide behind the songs a little bit and hide

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

the world building a little bit and hide behind, you know, a lot of the production design. I mean, it won an Oscar and like I said, I believe for good reason, I think it is a phenomenal production design. It really sweeps you in, in that first film. And I think John M two is able to kind of hide behind a lot of these things in part one that he can't hide behind anymore. In part two,

Carson:

Yep.

Preston:

design is, well, it's still great, but it's what you know, you're gonna get, the songs are by and large a step down from part one. Plot itself is extremely messy compared to part one. You

Carson:

Oh my gosh.

Preston:

if you were gonna do a straight adaptation or, you know, try to keep it a straight adaptation of the Broadway musical, you knew the plot of part two was gonna be a little bit more difficult to adapt and make work on screen because it kind of hardly works on stage, but it works on stage because you're off the heels of an incredible act. One that left you speechless.

Carson:

Yes. Here's what B, here's what's baffling to me. Here's what's baffling to me researching this after the fact. Like not to justify my re my re emotional reaction, like with research I did after about the whole history of this thing, but I didn't know the play is like a tight two hours or whatever it is, or two and a half hours. Correct me if I'm wrong. Like there's, it's like an hour, then a 20 minute intermission, and then another hour, or how long is the play?

Preston:

I.

Carson:

Does that sound right?

Preston:

I'll double check to look it up. I

Carson:

Okay.

Preston:

any like, I don't think it's known to be extremely short or extremely long. I think it's just

Carson:

So just kind of like average play length. Okay. So then you, given the nature of what you just said about part two.

Preston:

I'm interrupting. It's two hours and 45 minutes,

Carson:

Less than the runtime of Avatar. Okay.

Preston:

Let's put it in our terms.

Carson:

There's, yeah.

Preston:

I can

Carson:

Speaking language, but, okay, so you have this, and then you go, it's not gonna be one movie. It's going to be two movies. Okay. Add up the run times. Now you're up to like four hours. Let's just say two hours. Each movie. What's baffling to me, this is the most baffling thing about the second movie. It's somehow longer, but yet adds no context to like half of the emotional moments that I would think, the filmmakers would go, yeah, now that we have this extra runtime, let's develop, Fieros arc a little more. Let's develop S'S arc a little more. Let's develop Tin Man. Ark a little more and what you get is you get two extra songs and it feels like we are speed running between the songs. I'd be curious for someone to break down the nons song screen time of this movie versus the nons song screen time of the the first one because it feels like you're just skipping to song, to song to song. And it's like that is doing the legwork of the storytelling. But the problem is, is you back yourself into a corner because you're now in movie form and it's a completely different medium and you can't, you can't, get by with the songs conveying everything you need to.

Preston:

just like straight up, not as good. just

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

one.

Carson:

you have this double negative going for you where one, you're trying to get away with that the songs are not as good, and two, they're not as good as telling the story. And it's the second half of wrapping up your character arc. So you need to like really land the plane here in terms of getting the development of everybody, past the finish line. And it was just shocking that like a lot of the characters that are were meaningful to the actual plot. Madam Marble, the Wizard, like all the support and character, like the scaffolding of what makes the main characters arcs supposedly work. It just felt so empty. And I was just watching this going like, okay, tin Man's in the streets now yelling to to kill Alpha and like Nessa iss going crazy now after like two seconds of seeing her and just like hopping to these characters, I'm like, oh, Fieros gone. And then, oh, he's, I guess he's walking on the road. Okay, great. And then we just don't see him till the end. The stuff like that that I'm just like,

Preston:

a lot of

Carson:

why is the.

Preston:

you across the face and now you're expected to believe that

Carson:

Why does Madam Marble and the Wizard hate the animals so much? I still don't know. Yes, yes. It's, you know, all the themes of fascism, racism, yes. It's established, but they don't do anything with them. They do like one scene and they go, some animals are getting outta hand. That's all we get. Like, just,

Preston:

Well, here's one of my biggest issues you mentioned Madam Marble and the Wizard

Carson:

yes. Oh

Preston:

I, and I wanna preface this by saying thought, Cynthia Aravo, I thought Ethan Slater and I especially thought Ariana Grande were very good. I thought Ariana

Carson:

yes. A hundred percent.

Preston:

Both films.

Carson:

hundred percent.

Preston:

about part two specifically here. But I thought those three were really standouts in part two. I really liked them and I thought Ariana Grande anything that works, works because of her. That being said, Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Yo, who I have loved in other films. I have, I have

Carson:

Yes,

Preston:

mean, it's well known to me. Like I think Jeff Goldblum is a hoot. I think he's a riot. I think he's a lot of fun and I've really liked his, his quirky act that he is done as an older guy, michelle, yo, everything everywhere, all at once. She's incredible in that movie. It's one of my favorite films of all time. The two of them in this film Wicked For Good. They're awful.

Carson:

it is bad.

Preston:

are bad. They are bad. Jeff Goldblum's Quirky Act simply does not work for a lot of the serious themes that the Wizard has to convey in Act two of Wicked. It just,

Carson:

He, he, he is in Thor Love and Thunder, and we are in a serious movie.

Preston:

absolutely. He has to be in a serious movie. He's supposed to

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

in a serious movie. His character is in this part, in this, in Act two of Wicked, act one. The quirky stuff. You know his, his whole shtick.

Carson:

It's supposed to be a facade. It's supposed to be the facade in the first movie, like

Preston:

right? So it works, but it just doesn't work. And for good, it doesn't work at all. And then Michelle, yo. I don't really even have the words. She's phoning it in at a level that should embarrass both her and John m Chu. It is embarrassing how

Carson:

The singing too. Like I,

Preston:

She

Carson:

I can't believe they let her do that. Like.

Preston:

when she's acting, you can't, you're, you cannot let her sing alongside Cynthia Ervo and

Carson:

No.

Preston:

two incredible voices. You just can't let that happen in the way that it did. even just in her dialogue, man, her lines, it was so uninspired, I would not be surprised if she showed up to set somebody read her her lines right before they said action, and then she read the line as she just heard it, having never heard it before in her life, delivered it. And

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

shot we got. And that's the take we got in the final film. I mean that's, that's how bad it is. She just does not seem to care and it's crazy to say all of this and hear all

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

all of this. Knowing how good she can be having seen her in other films where she is very good. I didn't love her in part one, but I thought she was good in part one. I thought Keala settle as like this associate professor was interesting.'cause you know, seeing what she's been able to do in her career and even vocally, I mean in The Greatest Showman, she was a hit and she's kind of reduced to this nothing character at SH University to the point where I'm like, she would've, she would've been a really good metamor. It feels in part two that, Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Yo are miscast, they don't belong. Especially again, alongside. dynamite performers in Cynthia Ervo and Ariana Grande, who I think are lifting this thing up in ways that I just wouldn't have expected of any good actor. I think Ariana Grande is unbelievable. I really think

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

I'm a big fan of her, in both films and

Carson:

Yeah. And it just sucks'cause they speed run through all the, this plot is disastrous. Anytime I think they're saving the movie, it goes, speed runs the next thing. And I'm like, dang it. There was a glimpse there, there was a glimpse of like those two being able to dive into the actual drama and then it's like we're already onto the next thing.

Preston:

Or

Carson:

sucks.

Preston:

that isn't necessarily adding to their character

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

I,

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

have been mad if we could for good, they added two songs and we know that, but

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

If they cut a song or two and didn't add

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

But if they just cut a song or two and spent a little bit of that time developing the characters, act Two of musicals oftentimes have less songs than Act One anyways. And some of the best musicals are that way on Broadway. And that's for a reason because they're trying to land the plane and a lot of them are, are doing so, you know, better than Wicked For Good does on the screen. And I think it's one thing that I thought was interesting, and I wanna get your thoughts on this. It feels like, and I know that there's an element of this in. Wicked on Broadway, but it almost feels heightened. It almost feels more prioritized

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

Wicked for Good. It feels like they are doing everything they can. John m Cchu, maybe at the behest of Universal, because cinematic universes are everything that matters and interconnectivity is all that matters, it feels like Wicked For Good is doing everything it can provide. Skipping a lot of character moments in order to provide origin moments for certain elements, characters, or elements

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

Oz. I'm not necessarily talking about Bach becoming the Tin Man, right?

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

like that happens in the musical, or I'm not necessarily even talking about, Fiero becoming the Scarecrow that also happens in the musical, but it also just feels like there are moments that we get in this film where it's kind of doing a little too much to be in lockstep with the original Wizard of Oz, which

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

I think it detracts, I think it's trying to do too much. I think it's trying to connect to a movie that was released. I'm, I don't When was Wizard It of Oz released, I mean, decades ago.

Carson:

I mean, was it the thirties, forties, fifties,

Preston:

weren't. Yeah,

Carson:

if we,

Preston:

a hundred years, but I didn't wanna be wrong. Uh,

Carson:

I've

Preston:

just think,

Carson:

threw out,

Preston:

I think

Carson:

I threw out three decades just in case.

Preston:

It's a detractor to, yeah. 1939, so

Carson:

Okay.

Preston:

nearly a hundred years ago, 86.

Carson:

Yep.

Preston:

I think we're really suffering in Wizard for Good because of the fact that we are trying so hard to connect with that film,

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

it be its own thing and Wicked be its own thing as well. Wicked Be a story

Carson:

It's like it wants it,

Preston:

off

Carson:

it wants it to keep it. In arm's reach the whole time. And I saw someone put it really good in a letterbox review. I liked a bunch of them yesterday just looking at stuff and it was like, this feels like if the first movie was the first chapter of a Harry Potter series, this was the fantastic Beast follow up. And I'm like, that is brilliant. Because

Preston:

because

Carson:

the plot of yes, yes, but like the. The plotting to like keep everything sort of adhered to Wizard of Oz and it's like, it's almost, I think you said it good, is like, it prioritizes people's familiarity with Wizard of Oz as more important than thematically fleshing out what's right in front of us. And that's really a shame because you have,

Preston:

wrote, Nessa becoming the Wicked Witch of the East. It felt like I, it just happened so fast

Carson:

oh my gosh. It was like,

Preston:

In the Broadway show. It just, it's been a little while. I'm gonna admit it's been a while since I've seen it,

Carson:

yeah, yeah. Totally.

Preston:

being shocked by that. I don't remember being like, did they do this? Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. When did she become evil? It felt like a very natural progression, to the point where whenever it was revealed, she's the wicked witch of the east. I was like, that's cool. Like, it, it was the,

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

You wanna have in a reveal like that. Whenever I saw that on stage where I was like, that's cool. That's neat. I like that they did that. They really built toward that to where I really didn't think of it. And even if I had thought of it, it was still a cool arc to kind of get her to become this. Whereas in the film it was like, oh, oh, she's evil now. then two minutes later, oh, the house fell on her.

Carson:

Y literally two minutes. Like it was, it was a wa That's what I,

Preston:

With their wands. And,

Carson:

it was

Preston:

be, to be honest, one of, in that scene, one of the biggest laughs of the whole movie, one of my favorite moments of the whole movie is, you know, alphabet does her little cackle and then Glinda does a, she mocks it a little bit. She does her little, little, little, where'd you get that? And, or like, where'd that come from? And it's funny and it's, I really,

Carson:

really funny.

Preston:

But then I watched it back and I was like, does it look like that? It looks like a Toyota commercial. I mean, it just, it looks

Carson:

Yes, it's bad. Yeah.

Preston:

to the point where I'm like, ah, dang, that sucks. And I think that can be said for a lot of both of these films. Kind of back to the point I was gonna say about no good deed. The one song that is known as like, really the, the

Carson:

Be a song of the second act.

Preston:

love what Cynthia Avo did love the song. You know, I'll re-listen to it, the movie version any day. And I think that John MRE is able to hide behind the song a little bit in this, the way he was in Act one, but overall, you look at that song and the way it was shot, he's not really able to hide behind it, because of the rest of the film to the point where no good deed becomes just really a lot of CGI slop. It's just. what it could be. What it should be, in my opinion.

Carson:

Yeah., It's actually shocking too that like, it seems, I saw another review go into this. It was talking about like, because the whole interconnection with this whole, franchise, musical. All of it, building off each other. It's like you almost have the opportunity to, you know, update it for the times in terms of like, moving the story forward.

Preston:

Yeah.

Carson:

it's so fascinating to watch, I mean, this movie literally opened with the buffaloes or whatever, literally being tortured carrying the yellow brick road. And like, you're like, oh, oh, shit. Like, okay, here we go. All this stuff is being set up, both animals, all this stuff, all, you know, you think there's gonna be this whole payoff with the animals and ba and like, like, you know, maybe some more reckoning of like, you get all the propaganda stuff, but like, you don't really, there's no insight into like. The ground level of these, the people in the universe and why they believe these things. And obviously like we know it's'cause of the wizard and everything, but there's not really, context around stuff. And so by the time you get to the ending of this movie, I found it more sad than uplifting, like, unintentionally. And I know it's like they were trying it and so it's like you have all these things at odds and then like it wraps up and she's like, she's alive, but she's going into a Raku. Like,

Preston:

Yeah.

Carson:

I'm like, that's horrible. And then, Ariana Grande takes over and she's like, guess the animals are cool now. Yeah, we were friends, but I won't tell anybody what really happened and I gotta stay good for good. And I'm like. Really the, it's just a little shallow to me that like, we wrap this up in a bundle of joy and I know, you know, sort of the point is like that she is steadfast and is carrying on for ba and like, creating the world that they would want to see. But like, you have all this messaging about the entire system failing these people and corrupting their world. And then it's like, we're just gonna turn the lights back on. And it's all good guys. We solved racism, we solved it. It's good. The animals are cool now cut to the goat back in the classroom.

Preston:

Right.

Carson:

We're good

Preston:

cut to the goat back in the classroom, but we don't care enough to pay Peter Dinkle to come back for this movie.

Carson:

travesty. And so it, it, it's like,

Preston:

in

Carson:

oh.

Preston:

you need those heavy moments, when you need someone to sell the animal arc,

Carson:

He's the guy. Where was that? There was no follow up.

Preston:

Jeff Goldblum cannot do

Carson:

Failed to do.

Preston:

one, Peter Dinkle absolutely can do that. And he's a CGI goat. We don't even see a space gold bloom has

Carson:

is.

Preston:

benefit of doing real life performance,

Carson:

Instead we get, let's just address the lion in the room.

Preston:

right?

Carson:

The cowardly lion. What a, I know it's part of it, right?

Preston:

Yeah.

Carson:

But like, oh, love Coleman Domingo. But what are we doing?

Preston:

Yeah.

Carson:

like, guys, this is, this was not it. It, it's, even if that's what it is in the play. I don't know. It's just so dumb. Oh, you let me out of the cage of the home I knew. I'm like, there's one thing I'm changing. It's just such a, Ugh. It was just such a waste because you have the whole buildup with the, the bear and they're like, that song was actually, I really enjoyed that song of her, in the Woods. And then like, we get Nothing between.

Preston:

the

Carson:

Yeah. Which was gr

Preston:

And

Carson:

I like that one.

Preston:

like home. No place like home, no place like home. And she ends up leaving home the end of the movie. I thought

Carson:

Again.

Preston:

know if you thought about that.

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

song where she's singing no Place like home, no place like home and the end of the film, she's just, she just

Carson:

And if I'm the animals, like what, why would I trust anybody to come back right away? Like it's just the whole thing is just like on two x speed character arc. Like, it feels like the video game cut scene sped up. All right. We're here back in the castle. Oh, oh. We're back to the original scene that we saw on the first part of the first movie. Here we go. And it just doesn't hit for me the same. Like, it just, I wanted to feel so much more emotional weight of when that, when that girl interrupts her and goes, is it true that you're friends with her? Like I wanted to choke up and be like, wow, we've been on this journey and I'm buying in to this wrapping up right now. And like, dang,

Preston:

Yeah,

Carson:

is insanely good. But it just didn't, it didn't hit, and it's a bummer.

Preston:

It is a bummer. I think a lot of the issues are, for better or for worse, that they stayed true to the Broadway show in Act two.

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

And I think there's something to be said about, I mentioned it earlier, but there is something to be said about the fact that when you're watching Wicked on Broadway, act two. Happens fresh off the heels of Act One. You're watching this happen regardless of what you think about the plot or the songs not being what they were. It's happening, you know, 10 minutes after you, you just saw defying gravity live on stage and

Carson:

Yeah, that's insane to think about.

Preston:

Yeah. you're riding a high a little bit. And it's not, so bad wise, musically whatever. I don't think that it's so bad that it's gonna suck that high out. I don't think you're gonna fall off of that when you're watching it in a theater, like a stage theater. I don't think it's like that. And that's now wasn't my experience. And that's why, it's become of the most profitable, musicals of all time is because. The shortcomings you may have in Act two, one, a lot of them are carried by no good deed falling. Where it does in the act, it's kind of right in the middle. It's where there's a little bit, I wouldn't say that there's a lull, but, it definitely gives you a pick me up. If you are in a moment of not being as sure about Act two as you were about Act one. You know, maybe the high is beginning to wear off a little bit and then bam, no good deed, really, really brings you back into it because of how good that song is. And then after that, you don't have much longer until the very end of the show. But number two, it's also just benefiting from the fact that you just saw Act one just now. It's all one continuous experience. This show is, and so when you leave Wicked. On stage, when you leave a stage performance of Wicked, you're probably more likely to be raving about it because you're raving about the entire thing. You're raving about Act One and Act two. You're raving about defying gravity. You're raving about all of it as one continuous experience.

Carson:

Yep.

Preston:

in this film, you know, I mean, maybe if you saw the double header, you can try to sell it in your mind that it's one thing, maybe if you're watch'em back to back, maybe Wicked for Good is better, but because of the length of the two of them, I mean, wicked For Good is two hours and 42 minutes long. That's a long movie. That's a long movie to, to sustain off of the merits of Part one, don't think it does.

Carson:

And it sucks. It's like you just, I honestly, I wish the script was better. I wish, I wish they would've. I, I wonder what this movie would've turned out of if it would've been interesting and differing from the stage if they took a beat and say, this movie came out in 2027 instead of 2025. Imagine what if there was that three year break and. Allowing the, the story, the separation of the characters to really lay with people and to come up with some better ideas in the second half of building on just some more time for things to settle in, both from the production end and from a cultural resonance end. But so often, you know, we are rushing to meet the release date. They shot these movies back to back. They did not stop. I saw an interview with the editor, one of the editors the other day, and it was like, yep, we picked this back up in January and we did not stop until November. Now granted, most movies get finished really close to when they release, but I think the nature of this piece is just a fascinating way in which. Blockbusters are produced, especially blockbusters of such heightened cultural ip, that's a rarity. And, these studios are raving after because they know the recogni recognizability is there. They know the emotional attachment that millennials and, others, and now Gen z, gen Alpha has with these characters and with the songs and with Ariana Grande being one of the biggest pop stars on the planet with Cynthia being one of the, best vocalists to ever exist right now. Like all of that makes them rush towards the finish line and makes them go, yes, we need two movies and we need them a year apart. And that doubles our money. And I think this movie. Makes that more evident than anything else that it feels like the speed run next thing. It doesn't feel like the next chapter of the Lord of the Rings. Even though those movies shot back to back to back, it feels like a really rushed sequel to a lot of good ideas that they had set up and maybe had thought about more in the first act. And this was a rough, a rough landing. It was,

Preston:

So with

Carson:

oh,

Preston:

said, Carson, do you think that a wicked three of some sort will happen? And if it does, what do you do with it?

Carson:

I could see. It's one of those conundrums that like happens a lot in adapted media that's like you're almost free of the source material now that like

Preston:

Well,

Carson:

it's kind of limitless. Oh, it keeps going.

Preston:

oh my goodness. Let me, I'm gonna look it up

Carson:

Yeah. Before I speak

Preston:

before you

Carson:

about the

Preston:

looking up Wicked

Carson:

timeline and like if more books go into the future,'cause that would ruin my whole argument here.

Preston:

there are books. It looks like there's four books. Just, I'm looking on this Walmart link now. I

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

are about. You are, if you're strictly basing, you say like you're strictly and off of the, Broadway show. Yeah. You're out. You're outta material.'cause that was,

Carson:

Okay, let's just go with that for now. It would be interesting to have a fresh take on this world, and shift the tone a bit. You could probably pull off some sort of legacy sequel. I think it would be unfortunate if it came out in like two years. Like I just don't think it would hit, like in terms of being like a reawakening of the franchise. I know they've talked about like spinoffs too. Like I just think it's sort of a bad idea to do that. And I don't really, one, I don't know enough about it if like. Any of these characters could support their own spinoff. Obviously, like what I just said before, you can invent whatever you want for these characters, but it is fascinating'cause it's like, yeah, I don't know if, I think there was a quote from the writer the other day of like, I don't know if it would be about Alphabet and Glinda, but you know, yeah, we, we could try and it's like, it also just makes the ending to this movie Wicked for Good, that much more bleak that it's like there's something about I know it's like every franchise ever, that final isn't final, but like there's something about this stage play being final with itself and then the adaptation being final with itself. That like makes the story more powerful in a way. And I think. It would be a toss up if you'd go forward and yeah, it'd be crazy. What do you think? Like, do you think they could bring her back alphabet from the whatever,

Preston:

I think if they want it, they'll do whatever they want to do. If they can get Cynthia Avo and Ariana Grande to sign, if they can get the two of them, that's my take.

Carson:

sign back on? Yeah.

Preston:

to sign back on to do this again, they're gonna do it.

Carson:

Yeah,

Preston:

of,

Carson:

I think you're right.

Preston:

I mean, it's a cash cow and I think it's a cash cow because of them two. Especially

Carson:

A hundred percent, yeah.

Preston:

as I have done a little bit of research in the last, uh, 120 seconds. There are four books

Carson:

Okay.

Preston:

the first one was written in 1995. That is the only one, that has been adapted into anything that that was. The book is titled Wicked. It was turned into, the musical and then that was turned into the film. The musical came out in 2003. Two years later, the author released another book titled Son of a Witch, Son of Alphabet Throop. Um, three

Carson:

Oh man. So the writing's on the

Preston:

there's

Carson:

wall.

Preston:

three years after that. There's one titled A Lion Among Men. It looks like one of the main characters is the Cowardly Lion that says, and then in 2011 there was one called Out of Oz, which was the final installment of the main line series that they made, follows the granddaughter of Alphabet, whose name is as Civil War and depression reigns over the land of Oz. So, I don't know,

Carson:

Wow. Oh wow. That, that's,

Preston:

to do it, they'll do it. And with how much money this one's raking in, I could see them certainly trying, actually no, I, I know that they'll try something. Maybe that's like a spinoff. Maybe that's something that just goes straight to like HBO Max or Peacock or whatever. Maybe it's not, maybe they try and do a whole other movie. I don't know what you make the whole other movie. And I I will say flatly, if you don't have Cynthia Ervo and Ariana Grande, it's not gonna work way that these two worked. It's not gonna make the money

Carson:

Especially if it's a straight up musical,

Preston:

Whatever. They try it seems as if Elba and Glinda aren't, at the very least, they're not the titular characters, then you're number one, if you do get Cynthia and Ariana back, they're not gonna be as big of parts. Uh, their roles are

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

They're gonna be a little bit, muted. I don't know. That it would work. I think you kind of also backed yourself into a corner in for good, because you tried so hard to connect this to Wizard of Oz, to where it's

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

well, we know

Carson:

You can't reccon yourself even though you Yeah, it is. It's, yeah.

Preston:

you've, you've, you're, too much in lockstep with that film. And so

Carson:

Yeah,

Preston:

think that's kind of maybe an issue going against them too, that they would have to take into consideration. But yeah, I think they'll try it, whether they get Cynthia or Ariana back, they'll try something. It may be like a TV

Carson:

yeah.

Preston:

Or something that is lesser in scale, but they will not let this die.

Carson:

Yeah. So what's your final takeaway here? Mine is, I enjoyed the first movie and I wanted this to be like. I wanted to love this next movie. What I really wish, I really wish things turned out better, and it sucks because the talent involved, especially the actors, is so high caliber that like it's even more of a letdown because I saw glimpses of like good character moments, good performances, obviously good singing. It was all there. It's like, it's like one of those deals where you have all the ingredients. It's just they, it was undercooked, unfortunately. That's kind of my deal. How about you?

Preston:

That's probably my final take as well. I really liked the first one quite a lot. I think it deserved a lot of the Oscar nominations that it got. I think it. Best picture. I don't know about that, but it was really good. And I really liked it. I think that Grande and Cynthia Ervo are just, showstopping as a duo, they're incredible. They carry both films and the larger cast as well. There are some other performances that are good. I mentioned Ethan Slater and for Good. I really liked him in that, in that, in the

Carson:

Yeah.

Preston:

Um,

Carson:

he got more screen time to develop what his character was,

Preston:

we got more of

Carson:

which sucks,

Preston:

but yeah, to your point, a lot of moments that are there. You get a lot of teases, you get a lot of like, oh, this, you know, you get moments where glimpses what this could be.

Carson:

Yes.

Preston:

I think in part one, a lot of those, you know, maybe this is what this could be, moments are fulfilled to an extent due to the fact that it's a part one,

Carson:

Yep.

Preston:

of helps it in that

Carson:

And you don't have to follow it up. It's, yep.

Preston:

to tie up every loose end necessarily. It can kinda let those moments be, and you're riding on the heels of some of the greatest music ever written for a Broadway musical, and that, a slam dunk regardless. But yeah, I think overall it's a very anti climactic conclusion. False flat. it's sad because of the fact that it's not for good is not entirely terrible. I don't look at this and say this is totally amis. You do have those glimpses what it could be. There's a lot of glimpses of

Carson:

Mm-hmm.

Preston:

I think it's a shame for specifically, Ariana Grande. I still think that she is incredible. I loved

Carson:

Yeah,

Preston:

of these movies. I loved her in

Carson:

I'll be so curious.

Preston:

and

Carson:

So curious how this movie ages like, I don't know. You know, I, I had fallen.

Preston:

gonna be a lot easier than rewatching part

Carson:

Yes. And it was, that's what I went through. And so like, you haven't had that experience yet, but like, I don't know, like, you know, like I, I think I'm going to associate these with Thanksgiving time obviously.'cause that's when they, they came out and sort of like, I think there's obviously the family element of like, going to the movie with your family and like watching this and like, the big, big cultural musical that comes out and sort of, everyone's going to see like the theaters were packed. Yeah. And it, it's like, will this, to bring it back to the meme, we started this whole thing with will this hold space in my brain for years to come? I honestly, I don't think so right now. Kelly was surprised I was venting about this more passionately than normal when we were leaving the theater. And she's like, I thought you liked it when we left. You know, I was just kind of being, oh yeah. So, yeah, it was good. And then, you know, you get out the theater, you get out of the crowd and you're like, okay, now I can let loose get to the parking lot. You're at least six feet away from people. You're like, whoa, that was messy movie. And she's like, what? And so it's kind of in a funny, funny, venting journey these past couple days. But I'll be curious to see, I read your letter box review and I wrote a bunch of letter box reviews. I have not given it a star ranking yet. I'd be curious to see where it stacks up in my 2025 movies.'Cause it's at that point where it's like right down the middle that like, then I start be like, well. I gave that movie less stars, but I kind of enjoyed it better than this one. But that makes me look like an asshole. If I put this below this and then I'm like, what is the point of rankings?

Preston:

What are we doing?

Carson:

Go down that rabbit hole.

Preston:

this. Yeah.

Carson:

Yeah, exactly. So

Preston:

movies. not

Carson:

I

Preston:

We've got more. The year is almost over, but we are not almost over. We've got more exciting stuff on the way. Carson, I'm glad we got to talk a little bit of wicked. I'm excited for what we got coming up next, with these future episodes. We mentioned a little bit of knives Out avatar, less than a month away. That's crazy. Um, amongst other

Carson:

repair to be, for us to be insufferable for the next two to three months.

Preston:

If you are tired of listening to the Two of Us gripe about a movie that we were let down by, well,

Carson:

is on the agenda.

Preston:

I'm knocking

Carson:

Let's just.

Preston:

but you just wait for the release of Avatar Fire and Ash next month. joy is on the agenda, that's for sure. Carson, any final thoughts before we hop off this thing?

Carson:

Not really. You know, I think there's a lot of good movies to end 2025 with to kind of chase this one down with. And I'm excited to talk about, I can't believe Wake Up Dead Man comes out this Thanksgiving week. That's exciting. I can't believe we have a full trilogy of that now. That's insane to say.

Preston:

awesome

Carson:

And yeah, like there's a lot of stuff that I feel like both of us want to and need to catch up on. It's gonna be fun to talk about kind of wrapping up our, our movie year. I know it's like that fun time and you're sitting there in January and February when it's cold outside and you're like, yes, I am going to watch 10 movies in the next two weeks and act like I was their biggest proprietor for the last six months. And then all of our other friends be like, you guys are such. False cinephiles, and we had to say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We watch the movie. You watch the movie, we did it.

Preston:

And on that note, we're gonna call it, if you're listening to this still, thank you for listening, to our Wicked and Wicked for good review. No one mourns the Wicked, but we do mourn. Wicked for good a little bit. Uh, so tune into our other episodes though if you'd like to. They're all upright now. Make sure you turn on notifications, subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast, and we will be back with another one very soon. Signing off for myself and Carson. We will see you next time.

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Preston Moore

Host
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Carson Terrell

Co-host